SwordTube (yes, that's a thing) has a problem with hateful crusaders

Sword influencers abound on YouTube. Those who specialize in the historic European martial arts, or HEMA, have gained legions of fans showcasing the fantastic, bladed techniques of yore.

But talk of parries and pommels has recently given way to bigotry. Endless Thread's Ben Brock Johnson speaks with co-host Amory Sivertson about one valiant influencer fighting back.

Show notes:

This content was originally created for audio. The transcript has been edited from our original script for clarity. Heads up that some elements (i.e. music, sound effects, tone) are harder to translate to text.

Ben Brock Johnson: Amory Sivertson, are you ready?

Amory Sivertson: Born ready.

Ben: En garde!

Amory: En garde!

Ben: Do you know what HEMA is?

Amory: Nope.

Ben: Historic European martial arts.

Amory: European martial arts. That's not a phrase that I have maybe ever heard in my life.

Ben: Yeah, it's weird. It's weird, right?

Amory: Since you made me watch a video about sword fighting, are the European martial arts equivalent to sword fighting?

Ben: Yeah, pretty much.

Amory: Except swords, also, when you think of sword fighting, you can think of, you know, like, The Princess Bride. The first scene that comes to mind is Inigo Montoya and Wesley having that first epic sword fight.

Ben: “My name is Inigo Montoya.”

[Inigo Montoya in The Princess Bride: My name is Inigo Montoya. You killed my father. Prepare to die.]

Amory: Yes, that sword fight was like a big deal in my childhood. You can think of that, or you can think of Akira Kurosawa movies and the samurai sword.

Ben: Yeah, yeah.

[Duel from Seven Samurai]

Amory: And Kill Bill. Beatrix Kiddo.

Ben: These are all sword references. I agree. Well, well done so far.

Amory: OK, I'm clearly not, I'm not picking up what you're putting down specifically.

Ben: So, historic European martial arts. This is a big thing on the internet. I didn't really know that. I'm a, as we have talked about on the show before many times, I am absolutely a medieval nerd of yester-yore, years past, gone by. But also, recently, I discovered there is a massive online — or, at least, massively dedicated — online community based on historical European martial arts. You've got your creators like Metatron, Schola Gladiatoria, Shadaversity, and Skallagrim. These are SwordTube channels. But also there's Sellsword Arts, which you watched.

[Sellsword Arts fighting.]

Amory: I mean, it looks very legit. I didn't know if these were stunt sword fighters because they are in garb. There was some Lord of the Rings-looking costuming and some maybe Pirates of the Caribbean costuming.

Ben: I saw some Mortal Kombat outfits in one of their videos.

Amory: Oh really? Didn't even pick up on that. And then there were lightsabers involved, some people in a park fighting with lightsabers.

Ben: Definitely not historic European, that part of it. No.

Amory: No, that's from a long time ago.

[Lightsaber sound effects.]

Ben: So, many a moon ago, during the fall harvest, there's this post in the subreddit, OutOfTheLoop, that was asking, "What's going on with the drama in the Internet HEMA community?" This is from a user named GeneReddit123. They say, "I've been subscribed to a few HEMA/Swordtube content creators ... and recently content seems to have gotten a lot more negative. Shadiversity made a video rebuking perceived criticism from Sellsword Arts, and also admitting he dislikes Skallagrim in the same video. Metatron seems to have shifted more from actual historical coverage, to modern sociopolitical criticism that he feels is somehow distorting his view of history, among complaints of targeted demonetization of his videos."

Amory: What?

Ben: So basically, we've got some YouTubers saying they're being reported on the platform by other HEMA creator fans in a bad-faith way, which, of course, leads to the previously mentioned demonetization. Which is what YouTube sometimes does if a creator is engaging in things like hate speech or harmful conspiracy theories or practices that could get YouTube in trouble.

The poster in OutOfTheLoop asks, "Is this the typical hobbyist banter/rivalry, or is something more serious going on?" This is the question.

Amory: It seems like they have to actually fight it out with swords.

Ben: Definitely.

Amory: How big are these communities? Can you tell?

Ben: Tens of thousands of subscribers. Many, many, many views on these videos.

Amory: OK. Approximately many, many, many.

Ben: A forest of spears, Amory,

Amory: A forest of spears. Yeah.

Ben: So, in addition to making videos about medieval topics, Shadiversity is also becoming a right-wing cultural commentator who does videos about stuff like video games being too woke nowadays.

Amory: Oh.

Ben: Or, there being too many women around, I guess.

Amory: Oh, no.

Ben: Yeah. Metatron is sort of in the same place, apparently mixing in religious and cultural topics to his discussions of history.

Amory: I'd say if we can't just fight with swords without having it represent something larger, what can we do anymore? Why does it need to be more than just good technique?

Ben: Yeah, who cares if the person is actually from European descent, for instance?

Amory: Yeah.

Ben: If they can swing a Scottish claymore with the best of them, so be it!

Amory: Hear, hear!

Ben: And also, you know, I mean, not to be too craven about it, like this commenter on this thread was, but you're also really limiting your audience, I would say.

Amory: Also, as I've previously established, I'm not so sure how European these particular martial arts can rightfully say they are, you know?

Ben: Oh, jeez. Amory's questioning the purity of the martial arts.

Amory: Well, just let us fight with swords. All for one, and swords for all. There's another reference for you.

Ben: Yeah, it's pretty good. I feel like you're low-key more connected to SwordTube and sword content than I would have originally assumed. So, I salute you. I bend the knee to you and dip my head in a show of respect among warriors.

Amory: Thank you, good sir.

Ben: OK, this also apparently has sort of snuck its way into Rome or medieval time periods in the way that people are talking about them in these certain channels because you've already got the sort of like alt-right return folks trying to kind of claim this space apparently. And among the fog of war, among the blood and the mud and the carnage...

Amory: Mm-hmm.

Ben: ...emerges our hero, one of the creators amongst this group, by the name of Sir Matt Easton. He apparently, according at least to this Reddit post, has a gay cousin as many of us, maybe most of us do.

Amory: Right?

Ben: And he essentially called out some of these problematic SwordTube content creators and said, I challenge thee! Or whatever.

Sir Matt Easton, also known as Schola Gladiatoria, has a very public falling out with other content creators like Metatron and Shadiversity. And, instead of the sword, the mace, the halberd, the battle ax, he choses for this battle, the mighty pen — or keyboard. He writes an open letter on Facebook, one that would call attention to the terribleness that was happening on SwordTube and takes a defiant stance against it. More on that throwing of the internet gauntlet in a minute.

[SPONSOR BREAK]

Ben: OK, so, Amory, SwordTube is perhaps falling into disarray. We're starting to see racism and homophobia and alt-right political rants instead of, you know, just good old-fashioned sword fights. And then our hero, Sir Matt Easton of the realm of the people with gay cousins, enters the fray. He writes an open letter that kind of starts to get at the fallout between SwordTubers.

Because the thing you have to remember, right, is when you're part of a community like this that's super intense, normally, these SwordTube personalities would collaborate with one another in creating content, doing meetups in real life, etc. The audience-growing influencer crossover. But that can't happen when half of them are effectively spewing terribleness. Right?

Amory: Yeah. And also, these are supposed to be the safe spaces when we are brought together by an interest that has nothing to do with sexual orientation or political beliefs. These are supposed to be the things that stitch us together...

Ben: Preach, Joan of Arc!

Amory: ...like, Hey, you like this niche thing and I like it too. Oh, and you have this about you and that about you. Oh, maybe I understand you more than I did before, you know? And so the fact that we, people would come together around these interests, and then these divisions would try to worm their way into the community and tear us apart again is like, no.

Ben: Matt Easton writes a letter.

Amory: Sir Matt Easton.

Ben: Sir Matt Easton, that's Sir Matt Easton to you. And I'd like to read it to you.

Amory: OK.

Ben: "Dear community fans and members,

"This is the kind of post I normally try to avoid.

"You will notice that this morning I have removed a post that I made while I was away working and travelling yesterday.

"At quite short notice, I was kindly invited to get together with a varied group of people to do some filming.

"I don't normally turn down such opportunities, unless I have some concrete reason. Even if I have factual and non-damaging disagreements with another person involved. I try to beat views that I disagree with, with facts and argument."

(And swords.)

"One of the people involved yesterday, it turns out, is highly *personally* offensive to a lot of people I care about. Both here and offline. I did not know the depths and complexities of the issues with that person before yesterday.

"I don't care if somebody has historical views that I disagree with - I will argue with them. But I do deeply care if a person has views that I deem to be venturing into the realm of bigotry, such as sexism, racism or homophobia. That is absolutely, and obviously, a line in the sand for me."

Woo!

Amory: Fiery.

Ben: Matt Easton. Go! You go, hero!

"I have interacted with this person over the years, including posting video rebuttals, arguments, responses etc. on historical matters. I had not experienced anything negative with that person, other than disagreeing with a fairly large number of points that person made (as evidenced by my videos responses over the years, eg. what is HEMA?)." Apparently they disagreed even over what is HEMA.

"However, yesterday after filming, it was brought to my attention that on their second channel (one I have only visited a handful of times, a long time ago) this person is now promoting political and social views which are absolutely against my own views, and indeed against the principles of the groups and events I run."

It goes on and on and on.

Amory: Hmm.

Ben: And he closes to say, "For people who are upset to read this and did not know about this person's views, I suggest that you go and decide for yourself. But I know where my line in the sand is.

"Now this page will return to its usual content, apologies for the diversion."

And that is how Matt Easton — Sir Matt Easton — swung his blade and ended the battle.

Amory: But what does that mean, he ended the battle? Like he's off SwordTube and Sir Matt Easton is done?

Ben: Sir Matt Easton of the channel Schola Gladiatoria apparently will no longer associate with YouTubers like Shadiversity. Or, maybe Metatron. This is at least according to the letter Sir Matt Easton wrote many months ago now. And if you look at Schola Gladiatoria's page, Matt Easton's out there still doing his courses on saber fighting, still doing meetups, still doing explainers on why some armor is shiny. He's apparently still living the medieval experts dream!

Shadiversity is also still making videos, though I'm not seeing a lot of ads on those videos, and the numbers seem kind of low compared to past videos. And about a month ago, Shadiversity put out a very sad 40-minute video of himself not wearing his usual tunic, instead wearing a brown pleather jacket and red t-shirt.

[Shad Brooks: Shadiversity the channel is dying, and it's not for the quality of content. ... Views are down and revenue is the worst that it has ever been in the last five years.]

Ben: The reason? Apparently, Shadiversity's criticisms of too many women in Marvel Movies or people of color in fantasy movies or comments about how homosexuality is fundamentally wrong…

[Shad Brooks: The attack against masculinity is prevalent in the woke movement.]

[Shad Brooks: What's wrong with Peter Parker? ... He's problematic, not diverse enough. ... It just pisses me off.]

[Shad Brooks: Straight people find gay sex repulsive!]

...have maybe caught up with him.

This video was immediately parodied by another creator named Georg Rockall-Schmidt.

[Georg Rockall-Schmidt: We all know YouTube has been doing this forever, silencing perspectives they don't like. But it especially matters especially now that it has happened to me.]

Ben: While Shadiversity says that his other channel, KNIGHTS WATCH, which is more focused on his conservative views, is growing, his medieval weaponry channel, which was much bigger, is dying because YouTube hates him. Or maybe because people don't come to SwordTube for complaints about diversity. So we may have a winner, Sir Matt Easton, and a loser of this duel, Shadiversity.

Amory: Touché.

Ben: And I don't think everyone lived happily ever after just yet, but I just, I wanted to, you know, I wanted to bring you this schism that has been clove in two amongst the HEMA community. And, you know, you can go back to your Kill Bill or whatever your regular programming was, but just know that SwordTube is not what it used to be.

Amory: Well, thank you for telling me about this schism in a community I didn't previously know existed. But I do come back to my point, which does kind of broaden this out and make it relevant to me, even though I'm brand new to this community —

Ben: Broaden sword, if you will. Yes.

Amory: Broaden sword, yes — which is just that I hope we don't lose these places on the internet to political and cultural differences and arguments, and I do really hope that these places can continue to be, that other communities, SwordTube, TrebuchetTube, what are some other medieval instruments?

Ben: DitchDiggingTube, PeasantTube.

Amory: DidgeridooTube.

Ben: PlagueTube.

Amory: Whatever your niche thing is that brings you together with other people, let those be spaces of unity and joy in enjoying that thing you guys do. You know?

Ben: Yeah. Well, I'm totally with that. I will, I will add something, which is like, as Sir Matt Easton said, it doesn't have to be total unity, right?

Amory: Of course.

Ben: We can disagree with each other and we will and we should, but it needs to be a safe space for everyone to disagree with each other. And, we joke about, you know, I love me a sword fight, but like a sword fight is literally the most terrifying thing that you might engage with with another human for a thousand years. I feel like we forget sword fighting is fun because it's very old-fashioned or something, but that used to be like how a lot of people who didn't have a lot of agency died, you know?

Amory: True. Like duels to the death over disagreements and honor. And yeah, That's a good point.

Ben: And so I feel like these spaces have to be safe spaces for everyone so that we can avoid actually fighting each other with real weapons.

Amory: Swords for all! Commonalities for all!

Ben: Play swords and commonalities for all!

Amory: Safe spaces for all!

Ben: Let's make a sword video together.

Amory: Oh my god. Can you imagine?

Ben: It'd be pretty fun.

Amory: I don't have a sword.

Ben: Me neither.

Amory: We'll find some sticks in the park or something.

Ben: Endless Thread is a production of WBUR in Boston. This episode was really produced by Dean Russell in my armor and I was just his squire. And it was co-hosted by the lady of the lake, Amory Sivertson. Mix and sound design by Emily Jankowski.

The rest of our team is Katelyn Harrop, Samata Joshi, Frannie Monahan, Matt Reed, Grace Tatter, and Paul Vaitkus.

Endless Thread is a podcast about the blurred lines between online communities and that part of the armor right in the shoulder plate that really chafes your armpit.

If you have an unsolved mystery, an untold history, or an influencer battle to the YouTube channel death you just have to hear us tell, hit us up. Endless Thread at WBUR dot org.

Amory: Noon. High noon. Tomorrow.

Ben: On the seventh day, beyond the moon, shineth its fullness...

Amory: At the first sign of dawn.

Ben: Yes. After the cock crows and before the stew is served.

Amory: The band plays its last hrump pump pump pump.

Ben: Yes! Yes! Continue, m'lady.

Amory: What more is there to say? We've got all the, we've got all the bases covered. Before the stew is served...

Ben: Before the last lute. Before the last lute is tuneth — is tuned. Amongst the pies that the birds fly out of and forever amongst the swamps of the histories of time.

Amory: That's a strong ending right there. I can't, I can't. No more after that. That's it.

Ben: Alright, see you later.

Amory: Bye!